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The original source of our complaint was excessive and unwanted smoke and odor on our property, even before we knew the source. Our complaint today remains identical. Our viewpoint is based on the view we have from where we live, and this is what it looked like on November 20, 2009 and many days since then. All I did was point and click a camera. Photos and videos have not been doctored in any way. Is this excessive? Many of the property owners who live here every day think so.


FEBRUARY 24, 2010
It's been about a month since I wrote, and this is more for my own reference than anything. For the last several weeks, the winds have been out of the cold Canadian North, and we are always thankful for that, because the OWB is to our SW. And this is the first time since mid- January I have felt well enough to write with a clear head. I've ripped off a couple of angry letters to a few people, but today my headache is better than it has been in about a month, and the comments are getting calmer. That, and we've been very careful not to go out too much during the AQI alerts, which occured HALF the days from January 1 to today. 28 out of 56 days were 50 or above, with 8 more days over 100. Four years of breathing smoke (or 13 years, from what the OWB owner says) has definitely made me more prone to headaches, and this was the longest I've ever had a headache. It still comes and goes, but today was a good day.

All the AQI Alert info is absolutely WORTHLESS information, by the way, because I can't imagine one person living around us knows what an AQI alert is or why they are issued. (AQI alerts are for SENSITIVE people, not MANLY WOOD BURNING MEN who are impervious to respiratory disease.) In fact, this week, the first day in a long time the winds shifted from the west, our next door neighbor fired up a bonfire on an AQI alert day, which blew right at our home.

We made signs and put them up around our neighoborhood to make people aware of the latest research about wood smoke. We even included a cute little bear to make the message palatable. They were stolen. We put up more. They were stolen. We put a smoke alarm outside last fall to test the air. It went off and that was stolen. Recently we received physical threats against us via our YouTube videos, so they're turned off most of the time, except when a Congressman or official from the MPCA or other Agency needs to view them. Imagine that, threatened with harm for dissing an appliance. Ain't the internet grand? My headache is coming back.


JANUARY 27 & 30, 2010
To Dustin: Again thanks for answering some of our questions. You are our last free mediator so to speak, as your in-laws will not respond to our letters, and they do not want us to call them and we respect that. However it narrows our choices for resolution, but I understand how you don't want to get involved.

First of all, I strongly object to any inference of harassment. I only contacted your in-laws once to express our concern after putting up with the smoke and odor for at least 3 years- 13 years if your in-laws want to claim responsibility for burning that whole time, that's fine. Everything we've done is public, from contacting City officials to starting the process with Council. We are not about to jeopardize all our work at this point. Phone records will easily prove what the facts are. However, that is merely a distraction from the real problem at hand.

Because you have asthma I don't need to preach the facts about asthma and exposure to wood smoke to you. That's common knowledge your doctor should have already explained to you. He can probably also tell you about wood smoke and headaches. As for long term exposure, the button "What the experts say" on our web site has links to a wealth of information. None of it is based on our personal passion or written by us. Study after study prove the negative health effects of OWB's. Facts are facts. I understand someone in the family works at the Health Dept. That's good, because most of the facts we refer to come from County, State and Federal Health studies and can be verified independently.

This issue is hardly our personal passion. I happen to be the one with the best video angle & know how to put a web site up. Most of our neighbors can't/won't speak out because they fear retribution. Don't shoot the messenger. And what about the thousands of people complaining about OWB's -see the OWBs in the News button or Google 'OWB complaints' - can you write all those people off as just overly passionate also?
It's ironic, but we believe it's your relatives who need to look at this objectively. They have a passion to burn wood and no one can tell them otherwise. Am I wrong? They passionately believe they are saving money, yet there is no basis for that claim. We are spending MORE money in an attempt to mitigate their device, which is all well documented. So are our neighbors, who will testify if needed.

Fact is, the devices are a problem almost everywhere they are installed. We don't have anything against your in-laws; they were sold on poorly designed technology two decades ago, and now they feel obligated to defend their purchase, I understand how the ego works. But contrary to what anyone from Central Boiler Corporate told you, whether you add a stack or gut the thing out, the overall emissions from the device don't change. Would the smoke from a cigarette be "eliminated" if you put it at the end of a 4 foot cigarette holder? No.What does gutting the device do? Nothing to reduce emissions. Again, facts are facts, we don't need to defend our position. I seriously doubt Central Boiler signed anything that guaranteed the work they did would reduce emissions.
No one wants to admit they made a bad decision on a major purchase. Besides, they've have 2 decades of "free" heat. But it doesn't matter how much money they feel it saves or how healthy they feel, facts are still facts, and your in-laws need to be objective and understand the very real fact they operate a device that has a track record of creating a nuisance, and has proven to cause both short and long term health problems. Facts are facts, no matter our feelings.

And you are right, there was a very small amount of smoke on Friday when you were there. I happened to be videotaping and commented on the very same thing! - Trying to be objective by getting the good days as well as the bad. It was nice, because the South winds would have made that a typically bad day for us otherwise, so we are always happy when they have people over, because they damp down the smoke. However, today, and most every other day, it looks like the videos from 2007, 2008, 2009.


JANUARY 16, 2010
From Dustin: I had a chance to review all the info in the responses. Again, I posted not really in an attempt to debate either side, but open up either side. I thought about responding to the different responses, but its energy I just don't have & a debate that I don't have a real side on. I've viewed the videos & some of them are very compelling. I had a conversation with the homeowners about the build up. My understanding that after the city mentioned to them about the complaints & they agreed to add the longer stack. They've also completely gutted the inside. I understand that has completely changed the output & should take care of the excessive output. I've been there several times since my last post on November 30. This has been in the coldest times. Honestly, I've noticed no different output than a normal smoke stack on a house. Certainly not what has been seen on video (noting that all videos except one are prior to the repairs done over the summer). I'm told that city members, including the mayor have been buy & have not noticed what is being described here. I've also noted no smell as described. These home owners are in -laws & my kids are often there. So, yes I've taken an actual approach to pay attention for the safety of my kids. I have no concerns. I have not observed anything being shown or described on this website. I myself have light athsma & severe allergy problems & am sensitive to such things and still note no problems, no headaches, etc. Recently while inside I went right to the smoke detectors & tested them.
So after everything i've read, what I've observed & what you've responded, here's my input:
1)It is apparent there were some problems prior to the repairs/modifications the home owners voluntarily made (along with consultation of professionals in OWB stove industry). Since then I see no output as described.
2) My kids stay at the house & I have no personal concerns about their health & welfare. I promise you that if I saw problems, I would be the first to sit down with them & let them know.
3) I'm not saying that you haven't had concerns, but to me I believe that maybe that has taken a life of its own & it appears objectability has been replaced by passion. Since the smoke detectors in the home don't go off, its hard to believe the smoke detectors in your home go off. Especially with the limited output I have observed. I would only ask that you stop & reassess an objective view to the changes that have been made. I'm not calling you a liar or anything, I just know that sometimes we get into battles & can forget the reasons of the original purpose.
4) One thing I will respond to on your postings is the phone call. It wasn't a phone call, it was multiple phone calls, so many to the point where they had to call the Sheriff's Office. That again leads me back to #3, remind to take an objective reassessment. Good luck.


JANUARY 18, 2010
ANOTHER NEIGHBOR DESCRIBES A RESPIRATORY PROBLEM WHICH COULD BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE OWB
One of our dogs got away and ran to the neighbors today. The property happens to be someone we have attempted to contact previously about the smoke and odor, because they live close to the source. However, I had not had the opportunity to speak with this person until today when I went to get our dog. I introduced myself and pointed out where we lived. Since I had my respirator mask on, which we wear 2 out of 3 days outside, I thought I'd mention the reason I was wearing it, as it does look a little strange. The homeowner is very nice, and understood immediately what I was referring to and why I was wearing the mask.

This homeowner has been here 12 years, and said they also noticed the smoke and odor getting worse in the last 3-4 years. This person also described smelling what they believed was plastic burning on several occasions.This person also volunteered the observation that maybe the smoke and odor is why they have to keep clearing their throat constantly. Of course, there could be other reasons, but it's consistent with respiratory problems other property owners who live near the OWB are reporting. This is a year and a half since many other neighbors reported problems, almost 4 years since we first noticed the problem, over a year since the OWB owner added a length of stack to the exhaust pipe, and 4 months since the OWB was "completely gutted" and "completely changed the output and should take care of the excessive output." according to a relative of the OWB owners. Respiratoryy disease is not instant. It is cumulative over time. As the days turn into months and years, we are all breathing an accumulation of chemicals into our lungs - an average of 8.2 pounds a day is ejected onto our properties, according to studies of even the smallest OWB models. How will "gutting" an OWB lower that number? It doesn't make sense.


JAN 9, 2010
CONVERSATION WITH A WOOD BOILER ENTHUSIAST
My wife left to stay with relatives. There is a stretch of warm weather coming from the SW, which is our wind direction from hell. She just didn't want to sleep in it night after night again, and I don't blame her. On Saturday morning, January 9, 2010, the smoke was incredibly bad. I opened the front door of our house, and held a fire alarm out. It went off. I took the dogs outside for a walk. One of the dogs immediately started having a fit and sneezing. I turned around and took them back in, where the dog promptly threw up. That did it. I called the people with the OWB. We had contact with the OWB owners before, although not concerning the smoke and smell on our property. I had tried to call them previously, but the phone did not ring after several days of trying. There was no dial tone for some reason. Because the phone did not ring previously, I was a little surprise when it actually rang through and a woman answered. It took me by surprise and I blanked on the name of the people living there. Soo I asked the woman who answered if she was the home that burns firewood.

Her reply: Of course. I like it.

That was the first words out of her mouth to someone she's never spoken to before. Immediate sarcasm. So I got right to the point. I told her my fire alarm went off. It stinks so bad around our house. Can you cut us a break for awhile? I asked.

Her reply: Do you wanna pay for my gas bill?
She's actually demanding MONEY from me to keep from tripping our fire alarm? I ask for a break in the smog, and she asks me for money.
So I asked her how much, because I happen to know exactly how much we pay for heat. How much is your heating bill? I asked.

Her reply: I don't know.
I told her we have almost identical properties and houses. In fact hers is more energy efficient. They have more a berm home covered on 3 sides. Our home is a partial berm but has windows on all sides. I told her I am familiar with their property.

Her reply: I want you to stay off our property.
(I've never been on their property. I don't think I could breathe very long on their property. I can't even use OUR property many days). I told her I will be more than happy to stay off your property. And keep your smoke off mine and we'll be fine. OK? So if your smoke's on our property I'm going to have to call the fire department or the cops that's all there is to it. I told her I can't have my fire alarm going off. I'm just going to tell the cops that my fire alarm's going off, and I'll point in the direction of what's causing it to go off.. that's all I can do. I gotta breathe. I don't have any other source for my air. This is my only source. I'm not sure where you get your air.

Her reply: It's fine.
That's when I really got pissed off. I'm standing in my living room, looking at a blue fog streaming from the wood boiler right at our house. Don't get me started. I said It's fine? It set off a fire alarm just now. How is that fine? It's making us sick. My wife had to leave. The smoke is so thick my wife had to leave and go stay with family. Would you like to pay for the gas in her car? Would you like to pay her food bill? Would you like to pay our extra air conditioning bill? Would you like to pay for all the particle masks we've had to buy? You want to talk about expenses. Would you like to pay for our health insurance? Would you like to pay for the medications because my wife has to breathe all the smoke? So, how much money do YOU have? Because we can hire a lawyer. I'm at the point now with fire alarms going off... I stink. My dogs stink. Everything stinks around here. We've got nothing to lose.

Her reply: I'll look into it. I'll see what I can do.
That was on January 9. If you look at the 2010 Daily Log, you can see how they responded. The air has been godawful bad all of January. The OWB owners know it's making my wife sick. They know a half dozen adjoining properties have sent written complaints to the City Administration. They've been contacted by the Oak Grove City Planner, Asst. City Planner, as well as contacted by the MPCA, the DNR, and the manufacturers of the OWB, too. They've been advised to cover wood, to adjust their device, many suggestions to lessen the impact of their device. Either they are unwilling or unable to comply with any of those suggestions. Obviously the manufacturer would say they are not operating the device properly, based on the videos. So I asked her why they want to make us so sick.

Her reply: We burn wood. We've lived here since '83. Why now? We've had an outdoor wood stove since 1992. We've never used that (gas) furnace.

This contradicts what the City of Oak Grove told us. The City told us they asked the OWB owner why the smoke has been so bad lately, and according to the CIty, the owners "explained that they had used it most of last year due to the high cost of gas and fuel." Additionally, most of our neighbors began to notice how bad the air was about the same time we did. Someone's not telling the truth, and we could easily say we HAD been smelling it since we moved in, but we are just reporting what we see and smell.

As for "why now?" Now is 01/09/10. We first noticed the smell back in the Fall of 2006. That makes 5 calendar years since we've been breathing the smoke, at the very least. I told her that makes sense, because the previous owner of the home we live in died of lung cancer. Also, the man across the street from me has COPD and wears a breathing device on his face at night. I told her the neighbor next to her has emphysema and cannot go outside many days. told her I don't want to live like that. I don't want to get COPD like my neighbor and asthma like my wife. You're making us all sick.

Her reply: I just don't understand. We used to burn from 83 to 92 right in our living room. Why ain't I sick? Why ain't ...I have grandchildren come over here and they're not sick.

This kind of response makes us furious. We have heard this from other OWB owners in defending their right to burn wood. Based on that assumption, everyone should be smoking cigarettes, because my father smoked cigarettes (until he quit when he turned 80. Better late than never, Dad!). My father never got lung cancer so that means it's safe for everyone to smoke. In fact, I said to her, if you want to smoke on your property, you can buy cigarettes, you can buy all the wood you want, just keep it on your property.

Her reply: It's not the same. Wood doesn't have chemicals in it like cigarettes.

This sounds like something taken directly from an OWB "talking points sheet". I really don't know or care whether there are chemicals in wood. However, simply looking up the information you will find COMBUSTION OF WOOD creates a stew of carcinogens, which are carried in the breeze, in tiny particles that are so small they are not always expelled from the lungs when breathed in, but absorbed into the lung lining and enter the bloodstream. But I knew that wouldn't fly in this conversation.

Then the kicker. She added her daughter works in a health department. I said she would be the first to tell you studies show wood smoke causes a number of respiratory diseases, worsens existing ones, and increases mortality rates.

Her reply: NO SHE WOULDN'T!! She grew up with it.

So you are healthy, we should put up with it? I asked. My wife has severe asthma attacks so she should just live with it. You want me to wait until I get lung cancer and sue you for everything you have? I asked her, or do you just want to be a nice neighbor and not make people sick! I told her about another neighbor who has Minear's disease. The smoke can make him pass out.

Her reply: We just put $2000 dollars into our wood stove do you want to pay us for that, for something that we can't use.

Once again, the OWB owner reaffirms money has greater value than the health of others. So I said my peace:

OK, if you want to play the money game, we've had so many lawyers contact us, we'll be glad- it's a win/win situation for us. We wanted to be nice neighbors; we've been trying for two or three years. You can't do this to my property

Her reply, shouted at me: It's wood. We're burning wood. Like since the caveman days. The gas coming out of everybody's ... you think gas... that's like a silent killer.

Another one of those arguements that angers me to no end. Did evolution stop with the caveman? Are we still carving on tablets of stone and living in caves? Are we driving Flinstonemobiles? It's barely worth trying to argue with someone who defends the caveman. But, I tried. I told her the smoke from a gas furnace has 1/50th the smoke that comes out of your OWB. (Actually, the fact I was trying to quote is that one OWB puts out the same emissions as 1800 gas furnaces. The three OWB's within a mile of us put out as much polluton as the appx. 3500 homes in Oak Grove COMBINED.)

I told her smoke is full of carcinogens. It's got formaldehyde, dioxins, toulene, there's 15 chemicals the wood burning industry is the first to tell you it's unsafe. The reason an OWB is outside is because burning wood indoors is unsafe and unhealthy. And you're making it unsafe and unhealthy for the rest of us. You've just taken the problem and given it to the rest of us in the neighborhood.

I told her I'm really glad you're 100 percent healthy. That's just fantastic. But for the rest of us, why do you want to make us sick? I don't understand. I don't understand why you want to cause an asthma attack in my wife. It could KILL her. It could KILL her.

Her response: Oh, no. You can't prove it. You can't prove it was our wood stove.

I asked her again. Why do you want to make us sick?

Her reply: But you're harassing us.
Harassing you? I just picked up the phone and dialed a number because I'm being smoked out of my house and my fire alarm went off. I'm about to call the cops because my fire alarm went off. Who's harassing who? I'm just telling you I'm giving you an opportunity if you don't want the cops to come over there, don't set my fire alarm off. It's real simple. I just don't get why you want to make other people sick? Because you are healthy?

Her reply: Hangs up.

So this is what we are dealing with. Our neighbor sincerely believes their outdoor wood boiler is far safer than a gas furnace, which she calls a "killer". They believe the OWB does not create an issue with the air quality in our neighborhood. They also believe "seniority rules" so their property rights are more important than our property rights. They do not believe they are affecting anyone's health, despite what a number of City and State officials have told them and evidence to the contrary.

Misinformation, lies and denial. My health, the health of my wife, my pets, and the health of the people living on Uplander and Swallow Street in Oak Grove MN is in the hands of people who believe they are doing nothing wrong. Tonight, we will sleep with carbon monoxide draped like a shroud over our neighborhood again.


JAN 9, 2010
A NEW CHAPTER
After waking up on another particularly bad Saturday morning and seconds after opening the front door, our fire alarm went off. The rancid stench of the OWB rolled in with the cold breeze, and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I called the OWB owners. It quickly became obvious the concern for our health is outweighed by concerns for their pocketbook, although we've proven that's a fallacy for the most part. It appears they don't feel they're causing a problem for anyone. Period. So now it's time for us to get out our pocketbook for some legal help. We'll probably be asked to shut the web site down or take a lot off, as we've heard others who have filed lawsuits are asked to do. We shall see.



UPDATE DECEMBER 30, 2009

On Nov 30 2009 someone named Dustin wrote. He purported to know the people with the OWB. We've been waiting for a month, and he hasn't replied. So, we'll answer his comments as best we can. Dustin, if you read this, discuss it with the owners and get back to us; they won't reply to us, and ignore our pleas to stop damaging our health.

From Dustin:
"Very interesting web site. I am familiar with the area and was emailed this web site link. After reading it, here are my thoughts. At first glance, I see the annoyance of living near such a situation, especially with the pictures and videos. Of course, being an objectionable person, I also realize that there are not pics & videos of every hour of the day, which would be the only way to be objectionable (not to say such posting would be reasonable)."

OUR REPLY:
No we do not have video from every hour of the day. The point of the videos is to show the device smokes excessively in all seasons, in all weather, no matter the time of year. Oak Grove City officials were under the misimpression the smoke was only an annoyance under certain conditions, mostly, they believed, during hot humid weather. The videos show the fact the season, temperature, and/or humidity have little correlation to, or effect on the volume and severity of the smoke. Current tests by the EPA and OWB mfrs. bear this out.

I also won't get into a long explanation of asthma, but unless you experience a painful asthma attack, you have no idea how smoke can affect you. An asthma attack isn't triggered by LENGTH of time in smoke; merely breathing in a momentary large quantity can trigger an attack. No one has the right to do that to someone else.

As for having video of every hour, every day, maybe it will take a 24 hour web cam trained on the problem. We hadn't considered this previously, but we already have the equipment and the web connection. We may do just that.

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From Dustin:
"But the fact is, we are hearing only one side of this. It looks like you have been living there since 1997. I know the house you are referring to and I know they've been in that house long before that, actually long before many of the houses nearby were even built."

OUR REPLY: Our home was built in 1983, about the same time as the home with the OWB and several other homes in the neighborhood. The builder lived in our home when he built several others in the neighborhood. In fact, both our homes are similar earthen "berm" style homes, similar in size and design. In fact, the OWB owner's home is even more of a berm home than ours, with one whole side in the ground. It should be more energy efficient than ours.

As for length of property ownership: Regardless of which party has owned a particular property for a length of time, the length of ownership does not determine property rights (or abuse of property rights) over another property. If length of time was a determination, our land would have been returned to the Sioux and Ojibwa long ago.

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From Dustin:
I can see how the city would be a bit hesitant to come in and try to bully, especially without an ordinance in place."

OUR REPLY:
No one's asking the City to be a bully. We are asking the City for the most basic of property rights back: the right to clean air. We are not an exhaust system for someone else's heating plant. And in fact, there is already a smoke ordinance in place, which is listed elsewhere on this web site. Several Council members already agree with us on this point and it won't be long before they take a new vote on it and enforce it.

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From Dustin:
"And I believe you'll likely get them to pass an ordinance, but in most cases, houses with the OWB already in place would have to be grandfathered in.

OUR REPLY:
We are not interested in an ordinance. That's for politicians and people out to change the world. God, we don't even have breathable air in our back yard- that's the part no one gets. The rest of the world is someone else's problem. No one's looking out for us; we can't be expected to help out others. The owner of the OWB has taught us that lesson. Again, we are asking for the most basic of things. Three letters. AIR.
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From Dustin:
"That's the catch about rural living, is that there are often people that have enjoyed their way of live long before the sprout of houses popped up in a fashion to look suburban. Oak Grove is a beautiful and growing city, but make no mistake, they are still considered a rural community. Had this been Roseville, Minnetonka, Woodbury, etc, you probably wouldn't be having this issue when you moved."

OUR REPLY:
I agree with you, but the City and State disagree with both of us. Oak Grove was given designation as a City over 20 years ago. It's why they get funding from the State. And you yourself called it a city.

We have heard the "rural" argument before. Everyone has their own definition of what "rural" means. My wife and I grew up in "rural" SE and NW Minnesota. I had 72 people in my graduating class and the village was 1/4 the size of Oak Grove. I think I know what rural is. But land classification has little to do with the nuisance and health issues created by smoke inside your home.

In addition, I've lived in several different towns and cities. Homes in various locations were from 5 feet apart to 100 feet or more apart. Here in Oak Grove, the OWB is 10 feet off the closest property, and about 80 feet from his front door. I agree an OWB 80 feet away from a home in Rosefille, or Minetonka is probably not a good idea. So what would make an OWB acceptable 80 feet from a home HERE?

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From Dustin:
"Now in your case, you move in 1997 to the area, and I'm curious why the problem you noticed didn't come until 10 years later. I don't have the answer."

OUR REPLY:
People ask us this a lot. First of all, I can tell you if it had been in constant operation for the last dozen years, we would have noticed it, we have NO DOUBT about that. It may have been burning before 2006, but it was not being used for a period of time up until that date. In fact, the owner himself said he only began using it because energy prices had gone up recently. So you tell me, was it in regular operation from 1997 to 2006? I don't think so.

Also, consider this: let's say my septic system has been leaking onto your property for a decade. However, you just noticed it was coming from my property today. If I tell you it's too bad, it's been leaking for years, why didn't you notice it until 10 years after it started leaking, does that relieve me of all responsibility? And additionally, if that was my response to you, would that make me a reasonable neighbor?

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From Dustin:
"As I said, I am familiar with the location and the family of the house. They have adjusted the smoke stack to reduce at the request of the city. They also agreed to not use it during the summer months if possible at the request of the city. I'd say on that side of things, that is the homeowner being reasonable."

OUR REPLY:
Yes, a four foot stack was added. However, you have looked at the videos taken both before and after the revision. Does it look to you like the smoke has been reduced in any way with the 4 foot piece of pipe added? Either it works or it doesn't, and in this case, it does not. How does a 4 foot piece of pipe make a difference when smoke clouds are hundreds of feet long? As for not using it during the summer months, we appreciate it. We appreciate the fact they can see the smoke is heavy enough to be a problem in the summer. However, as with the term "rural", the season of the year or the date on the calendar has little to do with the fact the smoke is a nuisance and a health issue. The problem is the same on Sept. 30 as it is on Oct. 1.

On the point of being "reasonable": We used to have clean air. Now we have polluted air. Only polluting the air half the time is reasonable? Is it reasonable if I dump my garbage on your lawn every day, then after you complain, I only dump it on your lawn during the winter months? Does that make it reasonable?

The City Council of Oak Grove said the pipe and the reduction in months were reasonable "first steps" towards resolving the issue. If the issue is not resolved, they agreed to consider further steps until it is. We are waiting for them to take the next steps.

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From Dustin:
Now, lets change gears. I am curious, since you want the OWB to be removed and shut down by the city, who would pay for it? Would you want your city forcing residents to remove a heating source they've had for probably 20+ years and then force them to pay for the new furnace installation & fitting. This will no doubt involve some significant cost.

OUR REPLY:
First, no one ever said we wanted it removed and shut down. Second, this is not the homeowner's only source for water heat. As you indicated, they stopped using it during the summer, so it is not their primary water heating source.

Third, we'll leave it up to the experts, but an OWB is inefficient, time and labor intensive, and a poor choice for residential neighborhoods. A representative for the manufacturer of their OWB even stated the device is not recommended in our particular neighborhood based on proximity of neighbors.

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From Dustin:
Now I'm not even taking sides, since you put on the bottom you wanted open opinions, I'm opening up thought process. Since this OWB was obviously put in place when there were no restrictions (as there still seems to be no restrictions), is it right for a City Administration to come in and just make decisions that would put a long term resident family in a financial bind. In this day and age, that is something to consider.

OUR REPLY:
"Put a long term resident family in a financial bind in this day and age", there are numerous points to be made about that statement, but I will focus on the financial argument, as we have heard other people say the same thing.

I quite strongly disagree. Making a choice not to burn wood would NOT put this person in a financial bind. And I can prove it by comparing apples to apples. We live in the same neighborhood, we both need to heat our homes. The OWB owner has the same financial burdens the rest of us have; the same kinds of bills, expenses, and probably almost identical taxes. The electric or gas company charges the OWB owner the same amount as they charge us. We are all treated the same. Nobody is putting the OWB owner in a financial bind.

The OWB owner also has a home very similar to ours; it is similar in square feet, it is also a berm home, and in fact has one side completely covered, where we have windows on all four sides. The OWB owner also has a Southern exposure and can take advantage of passive solar heating to heat their home most of the day. We do this, and we do not have a southern exposure, but there is still enough sun to heat most of the house during even zero degree days (like today. The heat has not been on all day.)

Our home is all electric, so all of our utilities are electric. This includes lights, heat, water heat, water pump, and everything that runs on electricity. We also have a home based business, running 2 computers and 2 televisions appx. 16 hours a day. Since we are here all the time, we cook more and use more lights than most other people. We added up the past year's utility bill. Here's how it breaks down:
December 15, 2008- December 15, 2009-- Total bill (12 months): $1570.13
"Heating Months" October 15-April 15-- Total bill (6 months): $846.24
"Non-heating Months" April 15-October 15-- Total bill (6 months): $723.89
Difference: $122.35 for six months, or $20.39 a month for heating our home. We have two 26 year old water heaters and the rest of the house has all the original equipment as when it was first built, just like the home with the OWB.

Read that again: $20.39 A MONTH to heat our home, in the year 2009AD. I'm sorry, but $20.39 a month does not make the difference between home ownership and being out on the street. We spend more than that on asthma medication, particle masks and additional electricity combating all the smoke and smell. So someone can save 68 cents savings a day, we have lost our property rights and right to clean air. WE have to base our lives around someone for a savings of less than 3 cents an hour!

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From Dustin:
Because there are plenty of ways houses are built and fitted that change with code, but grandfathered in reasonably.

OUR REPLY:
The City of Minneapolis used to dump raw sewage in the Mississippi. Should they still be allowed to dump sewage today, and be "grandfathered in"? The City of Minneapolis used to dump toxic chemicals into landfills in Oak Grove, one of which is now a Superfund cleanup site. Should Minneapolis still be allowed to dump their garbage in our City because they've been doing it for a long time before anyone noticed? Of course not.

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From Dustin:
Can you imagine what life would be like if they could come in and force that change and say you are paying for it. I wouldn't. Good luck either way.

OUR REPLY:
Let me ask you a question. Wood smoke has 16 toxic, cancer causing chemicals in it, by the admission of pro-wood burning sources. Can you imagine what life would be like if someone forced you to breathe toxic air on YOUR property, air that that causes asthma attacks, bad headaches, and could eventually lead to cancer someday? I wouldn't want that either.

Additionally, I want you to know we are only 2 people out of 20 or more, living on the 6 closest properties, who filed complaints with the City.
I can only speak for us. I cannot tell you "yes, 7 months of smoke a year is fine" on behalf of the woman 2 homes away from the OWB who has emphysema. I can't be sure she has more than 7 years or 7 months to live. Is it up to me to condemn her last days of life to be smokey and painful?

Likewise, I cannot speak for my next door neighbor who has to sleep with cumbersome COPD breathing equipment each night. Is pocketing a few cents an hour by burning wood worth the trade off of sleeping with breathing apparatus on your face every night and being forced to take prescription medication?

It's not up to me to say sure go ahead, the girl who lives behind the wood boiler has asthma, even though a severe attack can be fatal, she won't mind?

And the guy with Minear's disease? I can't speak for him and tell you the smoke is OK with him, because it can make him dizzy and pass out right where he's standing.

No, we can only speak for ourselves. And while you're telling us what you can't imagine, let us tell you what we can't imagine: WE can't imagine why anyone would pollute their neighbor's property so haphazardly. WE can't imagine why anyone would knowingly commit willful neglect towards their neighbors, creating a nuisance, a health hazard, and making a neighboring property unlivable many days of the year. WE can't imagine why anyone would continue to do this after being made aware a half dozen surrounding properties find it a nuisance and many of those people have respiratory conditions which are aggravated by such heavy wood smoke. We also can't imagine doing that to other people in good conscience, even if it means saving a few cents a day.

But I guess some people not only imagine it, they do it with purpose, and at the expense of those who live around them.

UPDATE NOVEMBER 30, 2009
Dustin,
Thanks for writing. Sorry we don't check the message board very often. This has been going on so long it's difficult to keep up with stuff coming at us from every angle. I'll be happy to reply to your email, unfortunately there's no other way except directly on the bulletin board. If you'd prefer it to be private, you can fill out the email form and after that you can email us directly.
Your candid, straight-forward information is appreciated. First can we ask you a question? It's one almost everyone who has seen the videos or the smoke in person asks us, and we have no idea what the answer is: How, in God's name do the people who own the OWB, LIVE with all the smoke day after day?
In all seriousness, we are worried about the health consequences THE OWNERS FACE as much as ourselves or any of our neighbors living next to the OWB. Can you seriously tell us the people living there are feeling NO ill effects from breathing such dense, thick smoke day after day? As far as you know, the family living there is of sound mind and body, no respiratory or neurological effects whatsoever after burning for 20 years? It just seems so hard to believe.
Our windows are over 300 feet away. We don't consider ourselves unhealthy by most standards, just a typical middle age couple. The smoke odor triggers painful asthma attacks in my wife with just a couple whiffs of the stuff. Sometimes the smell is so concentrated, I've gotten super bad headaches after breathing it for just a few minutes. Our dogs start sneezing outside in it until we take them in. We've been told similar experiences by many of the neighbors -- from coughing to asthma attacks to aggravating a number of respiratory conditions. And we've heard the same thing from people around the country who live next to OWB's. There are other web sites out there just like ours, having the same problems. Numerous studies confirm health problems the devices cause, regardless of WHO happens to own one-- it's not just something we're making up. But it's still hard to believe it's had NO negative effect on the owners. How can that be?
I look forward to your reply.



UPDATE NOVEMBER 30, 2009
SOMEONE NAMED DUSTIN WHO CLAIMS TO KNOW THE PEOPLE WITH THE OWB
wrote us and had a lot to say. We have about a million questions for Dustin, as the wood burners themselves don't or won't communicate with us, or answer any to our question. Here is Dustin's letter. Dustin, we wish you'd write back, if you're for real.

Date: Mon, Nov 30 2009, 12:36 pm, CST
Name: Dustin
Very interesting web site. I am familiar with the area and was emailed this web site link. After reading it, here are my thoughts. At first glance, I see the annoyance of living near such a situation, especially with the pictures and videos. Of course, being an objectionable person, I also realize that there are not pics & videos of every hour of the day, which would be the only way to be objectionable (not to say such posting would be reasonable). But the fact is, we are hearing only one side of this. It looks like you have been living there since 1997. I know the house you are referring to and I know they've been in that house long before that, actually long before many of the houses nearby were even built. I can see how the city would be a bit hesitant to come in and try to bully, especially without an ordinance in place. And I believe you'll likely get them to pass an ordinance, but in most cases, houses with the OWB already in place would have to be grandfathered in. That's the catch about rural living, is that there are often people that have enjoyed their way of live long before the sprout of houses popped up in a fashion to look suburban. Oak Grove is a beautiful and growing city, but make no mistake, they are still considered a rural community. Had this been Roseville, Minnetonka, Woodbury, etc, you probably wouldn't be having this issue when you moved. Now in your case, you move in 1997 to the area, and I'm curious why the problem you noticed didn't come until 10 years later. I don't have the answer. As I said, I am familiar with the location and the family of the house. They have adjusted the smoke stack to reduce at the request of the city. They also agreed to not use it during the summer months if possible at the request of the city. I'd say on that side of things, that is the homeowner being reasonable. Now, lets change gears. I am curious, since you want the OWB to be removed and shut down by the city, who would pay for it? Would you want your city forcing residents to remove a heating source they've had for probably 20+ years and then force them to pay for the new furnace installation & fitting. This will no doubt involve some significant cost. Now I'm not even taking sides, since you put on the bottom you wanted open opinions, I'm opening up thought process. Since this OWB was obviously put in place when there were no restrictions (as there still seems to be no restrictions), is it right for a City Administration to come in and just make decisions that would put a long term resident family in a financial bind. In this day and age, that is something to consider. Because there are plenty of ways houses are built and fitted that change with code, but grandfathered in reasonably. Can you imagine what life would be like if they could come in and force that change and say you are paying for it. I wouldn't. Good luck either way.


Dustin,
Thanks for writing. Sorry we don't check the message board very often. This has been going on so long it's difficult to keep up with stuff coming at us from every angle. I'll be happy to reply to your email, unfortunately there's no other way except directly on the bulletin board. If you'd prefer it to be private, you can fill out the email form and after that you can email us directly.
Your candid, straight-forward information is appreciated. First can we ask you a question? It's one almost everyone who has seen the videos or the smoke in person asks us, and we have no idea what the answer is: How, in God's name do the people who own the OWB, LIVE with all the smoke day after day?
In all seriousness, we are concerned about the health consequences THE OWNERS FACE as much as ourselves or any of our neighbors living next to the OWB. Can you seriously tell us the people living there are feeling NO ill effects from breathing such dense, thick smoke day after day? As far as you know, the family living there is of sound mind and body, no respiratory or neurological effects whatsoever after large volume wood burning for 20 years? It just seems so hard to believe.
Our windows are over 300 feet away. We don't consider ourselves unhealthy by most standards, just a typical middle age couple who don't see ourselves as invincible, either. The smoke odor triggers painful asthma attacks in my wife. Sometimes the smell is so concentrated, I've gotten super bad headaches after breathing it for just a few minutes. Our dogs start sneezing outside in it until we take them in. We've been told similar experiences by many of the neighbors -- from coughing to asthma attacks to aggravating a number of respiratory conditions. And we've heard the same thing from people around the country who live next to OWB's. There are other web sites out there just like ours, having the same problems. Numerous studies confirm health problems the devices cause, regardless of WHO happens to own one-- it's not just something we're making up. But it's still hard to believe it's had NO negative effect on the owners of this OWB after all this time.
I look forward to your reply.



UPDATE NOVEMBER 28, 2009
OUR NEIGHBOR CONTACTS US AGAIN THIS BURNING SEASON

Many of our neighbors have been fed up with the smoke for a long time. However, most of them are quiet and try to put up with it. Today, a neighbor who has expressed concern previously, but has never emailed us, sent us an email."I've had enough," it says. "The neighborhood is blanketed by a toxic fog this morning."



UPDATE NOVEMBER 24, 2009

HIGHEST AQI ALERT THIS YEAR, ONCE AGAIN OWB OWNER IGNORES BEST BURN PRACTICES, NEIGHOBOR'S CONCERNS

Today the Air Quality Index in our area is 151 at 5pm. There's enough particle matter in the air to affect even healthy people, according to the MPCA. Those measurements, of course, are taken where there is NO wood boiler. Here where we live next to a device that emits massive volumes of particulate matter 24.7,
you'd bury the needle on a particulate meter. 151 would be a GOOD day on our property. Even though the MPCA says "Don't burn wood during Air Quality Alerts. Stop burning until the AQI is over", our OWB loving friend is smoking like there's no tomorrow. He's burned through every MPCA alert for the last 3 years, so I guess just because it's the highest particle matter measurement all year, why should he behave any different today?

Despite MPCA warnings against burning any time the AQI levels are elevated, despite the fact the City of Oak Grove has spoken with the OWB owner about AQI alerts, despite the fact he was advised on "best burn practices", despite the fact he was advised by the City several of his neighbors have respiratory issues including several cases of asthma, several cases of COPD, at least one woman with emphysema, and other people who are bothered by the excessive smoke living within 500 feet of his exhaust, despite all that, the OWB owner has his machine stoked and smoking away during the highest air quality alert of the year.

At this moment, the air is rapidly filling with more and more smoke. Tonight we will be under a god awful choking cloud all night again. EVERYONE is aware of the problem we are having forced on us day after day, yet no one will act on existing nuisance laws.


UPDATE NOVEMBER 20, 2009
Everything came together today- all the factors that make up a typically bad OWB day for us. Light SSW winds pushing the smoke slowly toward us. The winds died almost completely in the mid afternoon. The source plume was visible all day, a steadily spewing smokestack, continuously building a massive smoke cap over adjoining properties. The emissions had slowly been accumulating all day and by 4pm were no longer dissipating.

There were ample opportunities to call the City to complain in the last 50 days since the smoke restarted. We waited as long as we could take it, then waited a couple weeks longer, then waited again until the conditions repeated themselves several days in a row. We didn't want to call the City Planner, ask her to come over, only to have the wind shift and blow all the smoke away just before she got here. That's what happened on a cold day late last fall.

We didn't want to waste her time either. Today it's a warm 50 degrees out. We could comfortably stand outside, look at the behavior of the smoke, she could see the expansive area it covers, virtually to the visible horizon. She would see the OWB owner has not followed any of the suggestions provided for "best burn" practices. She would see how the wood was still uncovered as it was a year ago. She would see how the 4' stack requested by the Mayor to alleviate the problem had only brought the smoke up a little higher so we could now see it from inside our home. She would see how the OWB operator does not take Air Quality Alert days into consideration when burning- today the rating is 89 for particle matter (PM2.5), which is elevated enough to be bad for people with asthma who DON'T live next to a large smoke source. In this neighborhood, particle counts must be off the charts.

She would be able to see how the smoke and smell really are a nuisance on our property, and finally (we hope) be able to understand how this much smoke is a real health hazard, without needing a scientist's degree- just a nose, lungs and common sense. The tightening in the chest after about 10 minutes should speak for itself- if not for apparently healthy people like her, but then for the rest of us. I was willing to go outside without wearing the particle mask as we both do on bad days. I even had taken recent videos of the smoke, several of which showed our neighbor's home and property engulfed in a massive smoke stream, as more proof. City officials had problems viewing videos at work, so I had the original videos still in the camera and ready to finally show her. I also had ready the letter my wife had written to the wife of the OWB owner, pleading for her understanding that the smoke is making her sick. I also had a newer study by the EPA showing particle matter is more dangerous at levels much lower than previously thought.

I called Oak Grove City Hall just before they closed at 4:30pm on Friday. By luck, the City Planner answered, and agreed to drive by if she could get here before dark. While waiting, I went outside to get more photos of the spectacular clouds before it became too dark. I figured photos would be better than nothing if she got here late. I took several photos at different exposures because the sun had already gone behind the horizon. The clouds looked like giant smoke waves, gently lifting and lowering, almost hypnotically. You can sort of see the waves in the photo. I think that's from vehicles passing under it, making the air lift up momentarily. The air was virtually still, and had accumulated into a smog blanket hovering overhead from the tree line to the south (where the OWB is located) over to the tree line in the west, a thousand feet away. Today was about the best example of the size, volume, and area the clouds of smoke can cover during still days. This was the biggest expanse yet since the OWB restarted Oct. 1st.

It was a little after 5pm. Just then the City Planner pulled up to our property, slow down to a stop, then continued on to Uplander. I grabbed my camera and ran toward her, waving, but she evidently did not see me. She slowed again but I could not draw her attention. A deck of smoke hovered at about 25 feet over the street where she drove. The same smoke was at ground level as it reached where I stood. I was wearing a white plaid shirt, one of those 3M particle masks made of a white white material that's hard to miss, and I was holding a camera and tripod. I waved at her, but she evidently didn't see me and drove off. I caught a photo of her truck just before she turned right on 201st and headed back in the direction of City Hall. I went inside, thinking she may call me back. However, we've heard nothing.

After all the planning, all the waiting, all the making sure all our ducks were in a row, and she came and went. Gone. The smoke, however, stayed well into the night, once again.


UPDATE NOVEMBER 17, 2009
OUR NEIGHBORS STEAL OUR SMOKE ALARM, BUT THEY WON'T TAKE ANY OF OUR ADVICE.
Friday the 13th was a very appropriate day here. Starting Friday night after dark, the OWB started a belch that was going when we got up Saturday morning. There was little if no wind all day Saturday and Sunday. It was nice enough to open our windows. That is, if we were able to, but the smoke streamed at our home all weekend. Each night the smoke was so thick we couldn't go outside without my wife having a severe asthma attack. Monday the 16th was really bad. Really bad. I took our smoke detector outside to see if it would go off. I opened our front door, and the first step I took outside, the alarm went off! The air is bad enough it will set off smoke alarms on the other side of the walls of our home. This is reckless negligence.

I reset the alarm, just in case it wasn't accurate. I set it outside our house, and it went off apparently. I heard it going off outside but by the time I got there to reset it, it was GONE. SOMEBODY STOLE IT! We not only have a neighbor who doesn't care about his neighbors, now we have another one who is a common thief. WOW. The air is smokey enough to set off an alarm and the response it to steal the alarm.

We decided to be the bigger people and left some information about the dangers of wood burning on health at the spot where the alarm was stolen. Although our neighbor is willing to steal from us, apparently they won't take some good advice, as the information is still sitting there.


 

UPDATE OCTOBER 30, 2009
LETTER TO THE OWB OWNER'S WIFE
It's been a month. The first two weeks of October the air was still every night. The OWB pumped out smoke, filling the air and making it impossible to go outside after 8pm or so. Then it got bad the week before Halloween again. Instead of calling the City to complain, we tried to handle it ourselves this time. My wife decided to write a letter to the wife of the outdoor wood boiler owner, to ask for her help in this. My wife explained how the smoke was making her asthma really bad; how bad it smelled on our property, and begged them to stop so we could use our property. She also explained how our neighbors feel the same way, and some of them have real health problems. We hope this might get through to them.



UPDATE OCTOBER 2, 2009:
THE PROBLEM OUTDOOR WOOD BOILER IS IN OPERATION AGAIN
OUR NEIGHBORHOOD FILLS WITH CLOUDS OF WOOD SMOKE AND WILL ONCE AGAIN MAKE PROPERTY OWNERS SICK.

The lack of consideration for neighbors is shocking. We woke up today to find the outdoor wood boiler is back burning again. The SAME ONE.

We had our first 5 months of smoke-free living this summer. 5 months where we didn't have to check the air before stepping out into it. Life was almost getting back to normal. My wife hasn't had a single asthma attack since they took the OWB away. I haven't had one headache triggered by smoke. Our home, our clothes, our dogs don't smell like smoke as they had for the last 3 years. We were no longer sleeping under a cloud of carbon monoxide night after night. We were grateful our neighbor finally realized the severe negative impact he was having on his fellow property owners. Were even about to remove this web site.

But we apparently had way too much faith in people and our local government. Because now it's back. The owner installed a new OWB. After the City spoke to him, after the MPCA wrote him, after 20 of our neighbors loudly cried "OUTDOOR WOOD BOILERS DO NOT BELONG IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD", it's back.